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Ben Young
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SALLY



Joined: 16 Dec 2011
Posts: 57



PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 12:35 pm    Post subject: Ben Young  Reply with quote

What are peoples thoughts about Ben Young case?

His family have campaigned since he was convicted of murder and sentenced to life with minimum term of 19 and a half years (later reduced to 17 at appeal )for his alleged role in the marmion pub shootings.

Links:-
http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/opinions/2007HCJAC54.html
http://www.sccrc.org.uk/viewfile.aspx?id=418
http://www.scotsman.com/marmion-pub-shooting-1-1811931
http://www.freebenyoung.com/unfair-justice.php
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news...-marmion-shooting-86908-23890278/

It was alleged at trial he supplied the  gun used and the masks used by the two who entered the pub with the guns.It was further alleged he drove them there and was the 'getaway driver', but that he'd fled scene having sent a text stating "am seen" to the other accused at the time of the shooting. It was then alleged he returned to the scene and in attempt to cover his involvement he had transported the victims brother to hospital from the scene.

My own personal thoughts are that there's evidence he supplied the gun and masks,and that the text evidence undermines his alibi greatly.I think he was as likely to have been coerced/pressured into being involved by Bain as Cosgrove was. Bain was a total loose cannon at time and a dangerous young guy with the amount of drugs he was using,and the company he was keeping (and alienating).

I think his charge of murder and subsequent life sentence seems very harsh given the evidence reported in the media and elsewhere however.

I'd be interested what others on here think though.
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Big Wullie



Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 5125


Location: Glasgow

PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very hard to form an opinion of what has been reported by the press.

To do so would be as bad as the press and if you look at what I have written about the Nat Fraser trial you will see it totally differs from the way the press reported the trial.

Without knowing all the facts of a case it is very hard to come to any proper conclusions.

I have been guilty of forming opinions on what I had read in the press previously and think this is a very dangerous practice.
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nugnug



Joined: 15 Feb 2010
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Location: london

PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

is he saying he dident drive them there or he did drive them there but he dident know what they were going to do
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SALLY



Joined: 16 Dec 2011
Posts: 57



PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Very hard to form an opinion of what has been reported by the press.

To do so would be as bad as the press and if you look at what I have written about the Nat Fraser trial you will see it totally differs from the way the press reported the trial.

Without knowing all the facts of a case it is very hard to come to any proper conclusions.

I have been guilty of forming opinions on what I had read in the press previously and think this is a very dangerous practice."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I hear what you're saying Wullie -however I'm not drawing purely on press reports to form my opinion.
It's based on a variety of sources including discussions with family/friends of family and others 'close' to the case in the local area (which I'd not be willing to disclose on a public forum), the SCCRC stuff relating to his sentence,appeal hearing papers related to case etc..

Nor am I naieve enough to assume that everything (or indeed anything!)written in press in accurate.
"Very hard to form an opinion of what has been reported by the press."

Unfortunately however, it is very easy to form opinions based on press reports. What is reported in press is what often what shapes public opinion ,and in turn keeps innocent people in prison etc. so I think there would be  value in assessing the version portayed in the press regardless, in order to understand how this will form public opinion.

What are the options otherwise?How else do people become aware of MOJ cases at all if we can only consider those where full access to court minutes etc. (which generally only become available publicly following a process of appeal etc.)are readliy available and we discount anything reported in press automatically?

Did you only become interetsed in Nat Fraser case as a result of information you were party to that wasn't included in press; did you only form your opinion on his innocence based on non press reported information and facts?? If so -What first drew your attention to his case at the outset-was it nothing to do with anything you read in press re. case?

"Without knowing all the facts of a case it is very hard to come to any proper conclusions. "


The logical assumption from what you say above is that you must feel you have access to "all the facts "in the Nat Fraser and other cases which you have formed opinions about, and thus are qualified to voice very strong opinions and conclusions about them accordingly?  

I just thought that if I was asking others to form an initial opinion, I should at least give a sense of my own thinking.
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Karen



Joined: 21 Apr 2010
Posts: 1211



PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did the SCCRC just refer this case on the sentence and not on conviction?

Just looking at the site now. Do you know these people Sally?


http://www.freebenyoung.com/
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Big Wullie



Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 5125


Location: Glasgow

PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did you only become interetsed in Nat Fraser case as a result of information you were party to that wasn't included in press;

The very first time I read Nat Fraser's appeal I knew it was awful I knew his case was dubious and I asked MOJO to take it on.

My opinion was his conviction should have been set aside which it eventually was.

This was solely from reading his appeal

I was also passed documents from the late Glen Lucas which have never beeen in the public domain.

It is well documented that I once thought Nat Fraser guilty because of the adverse publicity hence I am now saying you cannot form an opinion without knowing all the facts.

Other cases I have looked at I have also been privy to legal documents like Wullie Gages which are not in the public domain like experts reports and court documents as well as SCCRC documents.

So all I was saying it was dangerous to form an opinion without knowing facts.

It is also one thing to form an opinion and another to voice this.

Forming an opinion is private but to voice one not knowing all the facts is another matter.

The logical assumption from what you say above is that you must feel you have access to "all the facts "in the Nat Fraser and other cases which you have formed opinions about, and thus are qualified to voice very strong opinions and conclusions about them accordingly?

Sally I have admitted to being guilty of forming opinions of what I have read in the press previously and yes I have information which has never seen the light of day in the Nat Fraser case to date and have more information than some would think.

I also sat though the trial and reported what I was hearing with total disbelief as well as sitting at all the preliminary hearings I have also read all the decisions regarding his appeals.

I have learned my lessons about forming opinions from press reports as they always seem to be very biased towards accused people and do not contain all the facts.

Like I have said it is very dangerous to base an opinion solely on press reports.

Karen has raised a good point regarding the reference by SCCRC.

This appears only to be in regards to sentence and not conviction.

Did he not appeal against his conviction ?

Another issue I would raise is the appeal you have linked above is not an appeal by Ben Young, but by Richard Cosgrove.

This seems a bit misleading and unfair to Ben Young.

http://www.sccrc.org.uk/sentence.aspx?start=5

It seems his appeal is unreported for some strange reason.
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SALLY



Joined: 16 Dec 2011
Posts: 57



PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"I think his charge of murder and subsequent life sentence seems very harsh given the evidence reported in the media and elsewhere however."

It's the sentence I was referring to and it was the sentence that was the basis of SCCRC submission.
I included the Richard Cosgrove appeal as a)it's clearly relevant to the case and b)because it was Cosgroves succesful appeal against sentence that formed the basis of Youngs application. so I'm not sure what your trying to infer Wullie be your comment about it being misleading/unfair to Ben young to be honest?




Forming an opinion is private but to voice one not knowing all the facts is another matter.

I simply thought it reasonable to expect that if I was asking others for an opinion then I should be prepared to offer mine.
Coming from someone who regulalrly voices very strong opinions publicly Wullie,I've got to be honest I find that a very arrogant statement to make. Why are you heavily involved with forums then Wullie-are they not a forum for discussion and opinion?

I'll leave it at that-and I'll know better in future.If it's not about Nat Fraser and in support of him then it's not worth discussing and nobody is entitled to make comment/form opinions it seems.

I merely offered a case for discussion and I've neither the energy or the time to get picked to bits and have to justify myself for it. Nor am I going to reveal my links or otherwise to anyone connected to the case as part of the grilling.
Thanks for everybodys feedback.
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Big Wullie



Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 5125


Location: Glasgow

PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'll leave it at that-and I'll know better in future.If it's not about Nat Fraser and in support of him then it's not worth discussing and nobody is entitled to make comment/form opinions it seems.


Now you really are taking the biscuit Sally.

No-One is stopping or suggesting you do not voice your opinion.

I used Nat Frasers case as an example but let me use another example:

How many times have you went to a football match then read it in the papers the next day and said to yourself: This does not sound like the game I have just watched ?

What we are hearing in the press is very selective and in most cases coming from the Crown.

We do not hear of all the fabrications, prevarications and perjury being committed by witnesses on a regular basis because they do not sell papers.

Even when you read some appeals they are not written the way you heard them and indeed some items and arguments advanced are completely ignored.

The powerful rely on the emptiness of the auditorium I linked on another topic and these words could not be any truer

I was only pointing out it was dangerous to do so on press articles and if you read it properly have admitted doing it in the past myself.

The link you put up although mentions Ben Young it is not his appeal and unfair for anyone to form an opinion based on someone else's appeal as the facts will be very different.
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Last edited by Big Wullie on Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:13 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Big Wullie



Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 5125


Location: Glasgow

PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As for the length of sentence, these vary case by case and without knowing the exact involvement one could not say if it is fair or not.

Megrahi got 27 years for allegedly killing 270 people, some have got more for a single killing.

On a personal level if someone killed any my family then my opinion would probably be they should spend the rest of their lives behind bars.

If they are guilty of the crime they deserve to do the time.
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SALLY



Joined: 16 Dec 2011
Posts: 57



PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you read the stuff Wullie the guy never killed anyone.He wasn't in the pub when the shots were fired so there's no question that he ever murdered anyone.

Hence why some people think his subsequent 19 and a half sentence for murder is harsh!

He might be guilty of having given Bain the Gun that was used,and he might well have been the planned getaway driver who later bottled it and fled-but he wasn't there when Bain/Cosgrove walked in Pub with gun and shot them.This was never in question.

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