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Ben Young
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Big Wullie



Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 5125


Location: Glasgow

PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:24 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote

So you think giving someone a gun and acting as a getaway driver is not as guilty as the person who pulled the trigger ?

Is that not what we have acting Art & Part or acting in Concert laws for ?

If he never gave Bain the gun would the guy still be alive today ?
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SALLY



Joined: 16 Dec 2011
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's hard to say definitively,but I genuinely doubt he would Wullie, as Bain would've likely just used another method .

The guy was away with it at the time with coke and paranoia and went on a psychosis-like mission out of fear of his partners relatives.( who were heavy families to have crossed in the manner he had!i.e by severely beating their daughter/sister/neice etc..for the umpteenth time.)

I'm not condoning any of it-the whole thing was a horrible episode that left many families destroyed and innocent bairns without a father!-

But, if you knew Bain at the time, and the circumstances it seems plausible that Young could've been put under enough pressure by Bain at the time- that Young went along with it initially out of fear then bolted at the first opportunity he could get when Bain left him.  

Hypotheses:-
Jamie Bain arrives at youngs door flying on coke having savagely attacked his partner earlier, he's now paranoid about her family getting a hold of him and demands Young give him a lift, and that he gets a hold of the gun he had told him he'd stolen from the house of a solicitor some months before when working there.
Cosgrove is there and looks terrified,  so young goes along with it as he's sú$t scared of the maniac at his door making the demands,and of what he'll do if he refuses given his state of mind.
Young gives him a lift and gives him the gun ,he asks to be dropped off and picked up later.When he's out the wagon young goes "I'm off- this is mental -i'm not wanting caught up any further etc..." and bolts in his van.Meanwhile Bain and Cosgrove enter the pub and shoot two of the relatives of his partner.

All I'm saying Wullie is the above hypothesis seems plausible to me from what I know of the case,and in that sense ,I think his sentence should have reflected his involvement-instead he was sentenced to 19 and a half for murder,(very similar tariff to Bain who fired the shots and Cosgrove who accompanied him)which in my opinion seems harsh if we accept the above hypothesis as I do.

Cosgroves appeal I think was based on the premise that the differrential between the sentences should have been greater,and that he acted under duress -which is why I posted it previously as it is obviously closely Linked to Youngs subsequent appeal on similar grounds.

That's all I'm saying -that the above scenario seems very plausible to me from what I know,and in that sense I feel a young man may received a very harsh sentence for not having had the bottle to say no from the outset. He was no angel and I have no vested interest one way or tother, so I don't seek to condone or justify anything about the case-I was just voicing my opinion about the case.
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Karen



Joined: 21 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can Ben Young appeal anywhere else Sally?

Quote:
Hypotheses:-
Jamie Bain arrives at youngs door flying on coke having savagely attacked his partner earlier, he's now paranoid about her family getting a hold of him and demands Young give him a lift, and that he gets a hold of the gun he had told him he'd stolen from the house of a solicitor some months before when working there.
Cosgrove is there and looks terrified,  so young goes along with it as he's sú$t scared of the maniac at his door making the demands,and of what he'll do if he refuses given his state of mind.
Young gives him a lift and gives him the gun ,he asks to be dropped off and picked up later.When he's out the wagon young goes "I'm off- this is mental -i'm not wanting caught up any further etc..." and bolts in his van.Meanwhile Bain and Cosgrove enter the pub and shoot two of the relatives of his partner.


That is a very plausible scenario.  I haven't read much on this case but the length of sentence does seem a tad on the severe side.

There is a hard lesson learned here for this young laddie.
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nugnug



Joined: 15 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

unless somebody changes there story to come in line with ben young's i cant see any grounds for appeal
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SALLY



Joined: 16 Dec 2011
Posts: 57



PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interestingly in Cosgroves statements about events that night he apparently at no point mentioned Ben Young or getting a lift/any agreement about being getaway driver etc. so I'm not sure what the evidential basis was in first place, other than what Young himself had told police.

You're right Karen it's a very hard lesson to learn, that if you fly with the crows etc....
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gordo30



Joined: 28 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I realise I will be in the minority here when I say I feel we need a law similar to the Joint Enterprise law although the way it is administered today is far from adequate.

Its strange but one of the 1st things that strike you about those convicted under JE are the sentence's put down and therein is where we base the misscarraige. I know you said that it was alleged that the gun was supplied by Young but did he ever admit to this supply?
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Karen



Joined: 21 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't we have a law like this already Gordo? Though no doubt its as unfair as the rest of the system if we do. People get convicted on Art and Part or acting in Concert.
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Big Wullie



Joined: 25 Apr 2007
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Location: Glasgow

PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It was alleged at trial he supplied the  gun used and the masks used by the two who entered the pub with the guns.It was further alleged he drove them there and was the 'getaway driver', but that he'd fled scene having sent a text stating "am seen" to the other accused at the time of the shooting. It was then alleged he returned to the scene and in attempt to cover his involvement he had transported the victims brother to hospital from the scene.

My own personal thoughts are that there's evidence he supplied the gun and masks,and that the text evidence undermines his alibi greatly.


If he supplied Guns & Masks and drove them there and only done a runner because he was seen then his is just as guilty.

What was he doing with Guns in the first place ?

As I have also pointed out, the victim would not have been shot if he had not supplied the gun.

It is a bit like saying the drug dealer only supplied the drugs.

Karen you are correct we do have Art & Part which means they acted knowing what was about to happen.

That is not to say there might be special circumstances for instance where people might not know what the outcome would be.

The guy might just have wanted the gun to frighten the other guy but decided once he got there to use it.

But we really do not know all the circumstances so therefore cannot form any useful opinions.

If they all left the house for a common purpose of shooting someone then they are all equally guilty regardless of what part they played.
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gordo30



Joined: 28 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Karen wrote:
Don't we have a law like this already Gordo? Though no doubt its as unfair as the rest of the system if we do. People get convicted on Art and Part or acting in Concert.


Yes of course we do Karen  and its exactly as wullie puts it in his last post, if Young knew anything about the gun supply, whereabouts,purpose and usage then he is guilty. Its seems again though that the sentence seems to astound people but I feel under the correct circumstance it is a proper punishment.
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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 12:31 am    Post subject: ben young. Reply with quote

I've never seen this before and came across it by mistake.. I'm from the gilmerton area there for know a little of this case, do any others on here even know the people involved in this case? I read the hypothesis part and it was so far from the truth but seems also exactly what the police did too.. They just made up a story and ran with it not stopping to pick up any facts.

If any of you are really that interested then why not speak to the man in question (Ben Young) there's many people in the gilmerton area that could get you in touch and if you knew the man he'll gladly tell you his story and show you facts that prove it.. Or contact BCKM silistors who are his lawyers and I'm sure they'd pass a contact on.. Ask there opinion too.

Go speak with prison staff that have heard it all over the years all formed opinions of every criminal in the land and mostly remember high profile cases or names.. Ask them of Ben young is innocent or guilty? I'm sure you're all thinking they will all just say yes guilty but from my personal interest from what I've found I've not heard one person say the mans guilty.

You're all free to form opinions but if your going to write it try getting some facts. The whole trail shows CCTV that proves there was no driver. Also shows that bain and Cosgrove walk to gilmerton via lasswade road.. Backed up by Cosgrove statement. Ben didn't live in gilmerton??

Think I've said enough for now but there's more facts if you want them.

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