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Injustice in South Africa
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Pat A. Wertheim



Joined: 23 Apr 2007
Posts: 73


Location: USA

PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 6:41 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote

Right you are, Wullie. In Scotland, the vast majority of the experts I have met agree with me and are even more disgusted than I am at the handling of the whole mess surrounding the Marion Ross murder. But the penalty for speaking out is loss of their career and livelihood. What choice does a man have then? Speak out, knowing it's the right thing to do, and watch his wife and children suffer for his actions? Or remain silent for their sake, and lose a bit of his own self respect? I cannot judge as wrong those who remain silent.

You are right, Wullie. Those at the top are to blame far more than the honest police and experts at the bottom rung of the ladder.
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Big Wullie



Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 5125


Location: Glasgow

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pat
Your Comment:

What choice does a man have then? Speak out, knowing it's the right thing to do, and watch his wife and children suffer for his actions? Or remain silent for their sake, and lose a bit of his own self respect? I cannot judge as wrong those who remain silent.

I am sorry i cannot agree with you here, Justice must prevail at all costs and if it means falling out with your Boss, Losing your job etc then so be it.

Here is a classic example of what you highlight above:

http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=2205529818&size=l

For fear of being branded a grass these two police kept their mouths shut and a man was sentenced to life, Thank god hanging is abolished in this country
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Big Wullie



Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 5125


Location: Glasgow

PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Judges report on Van Der Vyver case.

Having read the following report i can only conclude that the prosecution of Van Der Vyver stinks the same as Shirley McKie's.

Although the Judge does not trust the evidence of the police and evidence gatherers and their own fingerprint experts he stops short of accusing them of corruption.
This is a must view for those concerned about justice:

http://www.clpex.com/Articles/Van...esRemarksRegardingFingerprint.doc
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Pat A. Wertheim



Joined: 23 Apr 2007
Posts: 73


Location: USA

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Big Wullie wrote:
"What choice does a man have then? Speak out, knowing it's the right thing to do, and watch his wife and children suffer for his actions? Or remain silent for their sake, and lose a bit of his own self respect? I cannot judge as wrong those who remain silent." -- I am sorry i cannot agree with you here, Justice must prevail at all costs and if it means falling out with your Boss, Losing your job etc then so be it.


In a perfect world, Wullie, all men would be strong and reckless and would take up their lances to tilt at windmills. It seems I have spent my life doing just that, as have you. But not all men are strong and reckless, and some think it foolish to tilt at windmills. And if it were a perfect world, there would be no need of people to speak out against wrong in the first place.

If a man's love of his wife and children exceeds his love of his job, and if his desire to see his family housed, clothed, and fed exceeds his desire to see his workplace freed of slackers and liars, and if he is not strong and reckless but is fearful and cautious and slow to act, then I will not hate him for his failure to act. Iain quotes Abe Lincoln on the home page of this website: "To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men." So let us agree there is a component of cowardice in those who know the SAPS have done wrong, as well as those who know the SCRO and the Strathclyde Police have done wrong, but who have failed to come forward and protest. Let us pity those people, but let us save our strongest contempt and even our hatred for those who have lied to frame innocent people. Some may deem the act of ommission equal to the act of commission in its evil, but I pity the man guilty of the one while I reserve much stronger feelings of contempt and hatred for the man guilty of the other.
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Truthseeker



Joined: 24 May 2007
Posts: 16



PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very well said, Pat
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Big Wullie



Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 5125


Location: Glasgow

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pat

Your comment can be likened to Bullying.
The boss is telling the worker that if he doesn't comply with his wishes then he will lose his job and livelyhood maybe even lose his house wife and family.
I am sure these tactics are employed in many workplaces and yes likened like this then i can feel sorry for the ones being persecuted.
Is any job worth this type of hassle?
I would rather have my honesty than a job working with bullies.
All the bullies i have ever come across (And i have met a few) always take a tumble and at the end of the day they must remember they depend on the weaklings (The persecuted) to keep their lies and cover ups going.
If they can bully them then they will always bend under pressure.
The pressure certainly got too much for some in this case.
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Pat A. Wertheim



Joined: 23 Apr 2007
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Location: USA

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EXACTLY, Wullie!!!

You might recall that very early on, 14 fingerprint experts from Lothian & Borders unanimously signed a letter affirming that the fingerprint "identification" made by SCRO in Glasgow was wrong. Actually, as I understand it, one of the 14 actually was away from work that day but had agreed to sign it, only her actual signature was not affixed to the letter. Of those 14, only she is still employed as a fingerprint expert, but not in Lothian & Borders -- in Glasgow! The other 13 have been reassigned to other duties or forced out altogether. My information is not very detailed, but it has a strong basis in truth. Some of the finer points may be less than accurate.

Or take the case of Gary Dempster and a couple of others from his office, who stepped forward to speak the truth. They were bullied in the worst way to shut up. I am sure there were others who would have spoken out, but the cost to their careers and their families would have been catastrophic. So, rather than do the strong thing, they did the weak thing and remained quiet. Probably some of them told their bosses, maybe even argued loudly in their offices that something should be done, but did not take a public position.

You and I are more reckless, Wullie. "Damn the torpedoes! Full speed ahead!" and all that stuff. One of these days we will meet, Wullie. I am looking forward to it!
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Iain McKie



Joined: 08 May 2007
Posts: 936


Location: Ayr, Scotland.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find it difficult to resist a reply when Pat hits ‘cowboy’ mode. Perhaps the image of Pat as the ‘Lone Ranger’ and Big Wullie as  ‘Tonto’ is an image too far but both hit the nail on the head.

Bullying was very much the order of the day in the SCRO. There were experts who stood up to be counted and suffered for it.

Unfortunately there are signs that in some ways little has changed within the much-vaunted new Scottish Police Services Authority (SPSA).

The forensic sciences might be under new management but it is far from clear that all the lessons of the past have been learned.

The treatment of Gary Dempster is typical of the malaise that still affects this new body. In my opinion he is being forced from the service because the management have neither the bottle, integrity nor the wit to face up to their responsibilities towards   the vast majority of excellent hard working experts who want nothing more than to move on and be left to get on with their vitally important job.

A small core of rotten ex-SCRO apples remain within the new service who will never let go of the past and stick to the belief that their erstwhile colleagues did not make two wrong identifications. That they are still making identifications and preparing productions for our courts has very serious implications for our justice system.

Unfortunately fear of offending them and maintaining the fiction of a united SPSA appears to rate more highly than protecting Gary Dempster who has displayed the honesty and integrity that the new service cynically promotes as its guiding principle.

This is why the judicial enquiry is so important. Leaders within our justice system must be forced to wake up to a job half done. Only by placing them on oath before a judge is there any hope of forcing them to remove their collective heads from the sand and start repairing the damage inflicted over the past 11 years.
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Big Wullie



Joined: 25 Apr 2007
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Location: Glasgow

PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pat & Iain

Pat will not be aware of this case but i feel i must link it for him.
It is a case that shows the lengths our Police will go to to frame someone and which will forever tarnish the reputation of the English Police.

Colin Stagg:

The police were that convinced they sent a WPC to sleep with him if he would confess to the murder of Rachele Nickell.

This evidence was never allowed thanks to the Judge but had he allowed it i am sure another miscarriage would have been on the cards.

Now after 16 years the police, after taking DNA evidence, have charged another man, Mr Napper, currently serving time for another murder in a mental hospital. (Are people in these types of institutions deemed fit to plead)
Not fit to plead if my opinion is worth anything.

What chance do they have of a conviction this time?

Please read the following which will really open your eyes to the length our corrupt systems will go to in order to gain a conviction.

Sick if you ask me

Honeytrap:

http://ukpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5jRwVzgY2mVA7UBmmLNyhMPLUNj0Q

http://www.everetthealthcare.com/rachelnik.htm

http://www.septicisle.info/2007/1...nickell-media-and-increasing.html

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20060624/ai_n16507067

Plenty more can be found in Google under Rachele Nickell Murder at:

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl...=Rachele+Nickell+Murder&meta=

Down Periscope Full Steam Ahead Me Hearties, Bring it on.

South Africa can be assured they are not alone in their fit ups.
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Truthseeker



Joined: 24 May 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:55 am    Post subject: Which hammer murder? Reply with quote

The judge's comments on the ornamental hammer has been posted on the clpex site:

http://www.clpex.com/VanDerVyver.htm

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Sincere thanks to all those who have supported Shirley and challenged miscarriages of justice on this forum.