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| Should the Howes be extradited? |
| No, they have commited no crime |
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87% |
[ 7 ] |
| Yes |
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12% |
[ 1 ] |
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| Total Votes : 8 |
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Big Wullie
Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 1149
Location: Glasgow
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 Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 3:02 am Post subject: |
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Pat
Would I be right to say that the chemicals they were supplying were not Illegal in the US either.
From what I have heard they were only Monitored.
If true then the Howes have not only NOT committed a crime in Scotland but they have not committed a crime in the US either.
How would you go about checking out someone who placed an order with you for any type of materials if they are in another country.
From what I also hear the Howes were registered with our Government Agencies and were very open about who they supplied materials to including informing on anyone who sounded Muslim.
This does not sound like someone with something to hide.
You are right in that, for a crime committed in Scotland they should be tried in Scotland and lets face it there would never have been a "Lockerbie Trial" if it hadn't been for Scots Law and the fact the American Plane was Blown up over Scotland.
If anything the Howes should stand trial where any alleged crime has been committed and since they haven't committed a crime in this country then they should go free.
Has any Americans ever been extradicted from America for crimes alleged to have been committed in the UK without the UK having to supply evidence ?
"People who are over here and committ crimes then flee back to America are not included"
Do you ever envisage America sending any of its citizens to places like Libya for trials.
Is this Governor of this Jail Scotkaz mentions perverted or what ? "Pink Panties only"
I heard he made prisoners march in just flip flops and pinks.
I agree with Scotkaz that IF he is to be sent to this terrible jail who violate every human right in the book then our Government should not agree to this on the basis of Humanity.
| Quote: | | An Icelandic court in 1997 refused to extradite Connie and Donald Hanes to Maricopa County after hearing evidence about the county jail |
If it wasn't good enought to satisfy Iceland then I am afraid it is not good enough for us either.
Last edited by Big Wullie on Mon Apr 20, 2009 3:47 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Big Wullie
Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 1149
Location: Glasgow
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| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 3:18 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Sheriff runs female chain gang
“I got meal costs down to 40 cents a day per inmate. It costs $1.15 a day to feed the department’s dogs. Now, I’m cutting prisoners’ calories from 3,000 to 2,500 a day,” the sheriff said during a recent tour of his tent city.
Reuters, October 29, 2003 |
If all American jails are run this way then I wouldn't allow my dog to be sent there, I would rather the Vet just give it a wee jag.
To demean someone in this way by feeding their dogs better than Humans is utterly unacceptable in any Country, prisoners or not. |
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Pat A. Wertheim
Joined: 23 Apr 2007
Posts: 73
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 3:18 am Post subject: |
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| Big Wullie wrote: | | Has any Americans ever been extradicted from America for crimes alleged to have been committed in the UK without the UK having to supply evidence ? |
Great point, Wullie. I am not sure I have ever heard about a reverse situation. Something to ponder, eh? If a Scot ordered something over the internet from an American, and the thing he ordered was illegal in Scotland, would the US extradite the American to Scotland? I doubt it.
Probably everything you've ever heard about Arpaio is true, and more things you haven't heard. He is the ultimate master of publicity and he knows how to stir populist prejudices to vote his ticket. Whatever the hotbutton issue of the day, Sheriff Joe puts on a freshly starched uniform and has a press conference at which he comes down firmly on the side of the majority fears and prejudices, promising to protect from the boogyman and humiliate those in his custody. But since he is elected, the only way to oust him from office would be for somebody to beat him in an election, and that is not likely to happen. Still, I say that I cannot envision Mr. Howes being locked up at Sheriff Joe's hotel. Federal prisoners stay in Federal lockups, not the county jail.
As for the amount of time he's spent there locked up fighting extradition, I suspect that has to do more with Scottish courts than with anything else. The threads on this chat board paint a dismal picture of *justice* in the Scottish courts.
_________________
Pat A. Wertheim
foridents@aol.com |
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Big Wullie
Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 1149
Location: Glasgow
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| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 3:28 am Post subject: |
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Pat
You do not have to convince me of the terrible Injustices in Scotland, I agree 110%
The point I am also trying to make was Brian Howes claims it was not a crime in America either, I have no way of knowing so have to take his word for it unless someone contradicts him.
As for Sheriff Joe, The county would be better off financially without him according to the amount of claims for abuse they have had to fork out because of him.
$43 Million I hear so far, perhaps even more.
| Quote: | | Great point, Wullie. I am not sure I have ever heard about a reverse situation. Something to ponder, eh? If a Scot ordered something over the internet from an American, and the thing he ordered was illegal in Scotland, would the US extradite the American to Scotland? I doubt it. |
I had this debate with Scotkaz earlier on the phone and if someone was ordering cheap Fags from Spain or France on the internet to avoid paying the extortionate Taxes here, Who would be charged ?
I would think the Scot. |
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Big Wullie
Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 1149
Location: Glasgow
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| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 3:45 am Post subject: |
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Pat
| Quote: | By Tony Ortega
Published on July 10, 1997
An Icelandic court has found that two American fugitives should not be extradited to Maricopa County because of the condition of Sheriff Joe Arpaio's jails.
In May, New Times reported that Connie and Donald Hanes faced extradition from Iceland on charges that they illegally took Connie's granddaughter, Zenith, away from her mother, Scottsdale resident Kelly Helton. |
Even American Fugitives have sanctuary in Iceland because of Sheriff Joe's Jail Tortures.
They cannot extradite their own Citizens Back to America but want to Extradite our Scottish ones, Shocking events I say. |
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Iain McKie
Joined: 08 May 2007
Posts: 263
Location: Ayr, Scotland.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:09 am Post subject: |
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From my knowledge of our own imperfect justice system and the discussion between Pat and Scotkaz the full impact of accused persons being exposed to less than perfect justice systems is graphically highlighted.
If the Howe’s are guilty as charged then they deserve all they get but if not they are truly caught in a nightmare not of their making.
I do not know if they are not guilty or guilty but regardless of this I should have faith that at home and in the US there are systems in place that will guarantee, as far as is humanly possible, that if extradited they will receive a fair trial and if found guilty be subject to a prison system that gives some hope of rehabilitation and redemption.
As I have observed before faulty justice systems not only convict the innocent but also allow the guilty to go free. When you are dealing with terrorism, drugs and paedophilia the latter, in terms of victims, is arguably as important as the former given the destructive effect these crimes have on individuals and families.
We are in the strange position of having a justice system that not only makes it difficult for accused persons to establish their innocence but allows the guilty to hide from the consequences of their actions.
I cannot make a judgement in this case but the nagging doubts persist at the back of my mind that in some areas justice is what the government decides not what the truth demands. |
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Big Wullie
Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 1149
Location: Glasgow
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| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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Iain
If the Howes are Guilty they deserve to rot in Hell, I have no time for Drug Dealers nor anyone involved with helping them.
Like yourself I cannot say if they are Guilty or not, but Brian Howes made a statement on Radio 5 Live last night saying: He had not committed a crime here or in America.
The substance he was exporting was not banned in America, "It was only monitored" he claimed, so why is our Justice Minister even considering sending them to the US when they have committed no crimes ? |
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Iain McKie
Joined: 08 May 2007
Posts: 263
Location: Ayr, Scotland.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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A difficult one Wullie but evidence has been presented making allegations that serious crimes have been committed and they need to be examined.
Our best efforts can be directed at trying to ensure we have the best possible justice system to determine guilt or innocence. After Lockerbie and the subsequent prevarication I find it difficult, however, to argue that we have such a system.
Does this mean then that we should campaign for everyone who denies guilt? A ‘Catch 22’ situation is in danger of developing no matter which way we go. It is up to our Justice Secretary to stop the first aid measures and take some determined steps to evaluate the whole system and challenge the status quo and vested interests that dominate it.
Whatever way he goes however it is always going to be a precarious balance that has to be continually monitored lest new vested interests develop that see change just as unwelcome as those presently in power feel it is. |
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Big Wullie
Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 1149
Location: Glasgow
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| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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Iain
As far as I know no evidence of any crime exists never mind being presented.
I have also been informed the Howes have never been cautioned or Charged with any crimes.
When their house was raided they took away photos of their kids.
They are being mentally tortured at the moment trying to get one to plead to get the other off.
Once again I cannot highlight enough: The substance was not banned so no crime has been committed |
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scotkaz
Joined: 28 Aug 2008
Posts: 527
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| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Once again I cannot highlight enough: The substance was not banned so no crime has been committed |
Many legal items can be bought and abused by some consumers.
These chemicals were not banned as Wullie rightly says. They are not illegal in this country so no crime was committed in this country.
Its a bit like someone going into the shop and buying glue. Most of us use glue to stick things down. Some people choose to sniff it and end up dead or brain damaged. Who is to blame there? Obviously the person who sniffed the glue and NOT the vendor.
Last edited by scotkaz on Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:27 am; edited 1 time in total |
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