shirleymckie.myfastforum.org

Iain McKie · Joined: 08 May 2007 Posts: 192 Location: Ayr, Scotland.

As so often in the past we are obliged to Peter Cherbi for bringing important issues to our attention and the question of reforming the legal system is the most important of all.

I have just ploughed through the debate and like Peter and Al am far from certain just how committed the Scottish Government is to real reform.

While sensibly suggesting that any changes must take account of the needs of Scotland and its people and not merely be a knee jerk reaction by copying the English proposals this almost seemed to be an argument for severely limiting change.

There is little doubt that behind the matters being debated are vitally important issues of direct relevance to us all.

· The prohibitive cost of obtaining criminal/civil legal representation.

· The unacceptably long time taken to process cases.

· Where does the client go when that representation fails him/her?

· What you do if you cannot access representation?

· Who polices the system and on whose behalf?

While the debate was useful and raised many important issues it was clear that no party is really willing to challenge the legal establishment. While there were some well made points about operating the system in a more open way there was little if any lateral thinking. Clearly the base everyone was working from was a basically effective and tested system that was more in need of remedial ‘first aid’ without any real cultural or structural change.

Some sense was spoken and I certainly agree with members speaking against the legal system being ‘Tesco-ised’ and having a fear of a free for all in which many local sole practitioners would be forced to the wall. We have all seen how the major supermarkets have forced many small shopkeepers out of business and instead of increasing competition threaten to reduce it.

This said while the product is clearly different and more stringent safeguards and checks and balances require to be in place to regulate the quality of the service being offered the principle is the same. We are entitled ready access to quality services delivered in a reasonable time at a reasonable cost unhindered by the existing incestuous system based on self interest. If this can be guaranteed by making the system more competitive then so be it.

This debate does not encourage me that this is going to happen. Underpinning it all was the message that change will occur but it will only be change that the present establishment wants. Vested interests will not be challenged.

The fact is we have a system coming apart at the seams. As injustice piles on injustice it is clear that unless the law is made more open, accessible and affordable nothing will change.

As MSP Mike Pringle stated in the debate:

“There are three questions at the crux of this complex issue. First, how can we provide a widely accessible legal service to the people of Scotland? Secondly, how can we ensure that the standard of the service remains consistent and well regulated? Thirdly, what structure is best suited to fulfilling those conditions?”

We must be involved in this debate. The question is – how?

Given Bryan’s exhortation for a Justice Party a comprehensive group response would probably be much more effective than individual ones.

Big Wullie · Joined: 25 Apr 2007 Posts: 550 Location: Glasgow

As well as asking SNP Ministers and MSPs we should all be asking All Our Local MSPs to become involved in these much needed Reforms.
A group set up Independently of our Judiciary is much needed, I for one am willing to participate in such groups as indeed i am sure most other victims would only be too willing to give up some of their spare time to participate in such group meetings.
Who would head such a Group Though?
I have set up a blog for people to put their complaints forward against Lawyers and it can be found here

http://lawsocietycomplaints.blogspot.com/

It is to be hoped that by sharing complaints the people of Scotland will be able to address properly and word their complaints to the Law Society.
Secondly.
It is hoped that people will be able to compare complaints and see if the Law Society are dealing with their complaints evenly or not.
All complaints will be published when a proper E-Mail Address is provided.
Copied documents backing up such complaints will also be published but names and addresses will be withheld on Request.

Along with Iain above i agree that Peter brings so much to our fight for Justice and for this i thank him.

Together i beleive we can set up a working group to look at all miscarriages

Bryan · Joined: 01 May 2007 Posts: 25

Willie
Whilst not taking away or interfering with our individual groups, who all do good work, I agree we should set up a super-group if you like.
Every misscarriage affects many people. In my mums case I would estimate a direct effect on perhaps way over one thousand, including relatives friends neighbours and such. In the broader community, many many more. Add up the number of people affected by all our cases, translate them into votes and we have a considerable lobby right across the country.
I believe passionately, this would be the beginning of a major pressure group. I suppose my dream of a “Justice Party” may have to wait a bit.
Regards
Bryan

freethekillie2 · Joined: 27 Apr 2007 Posts: 309

from the herald!

http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/news/display.var.1849244.0.0.php

is it a good thing or a bad thing?

Bryan · Joined: 01 May 2007 Posts: 25

freethekillie 2

Is it a good or a bad thing?

On the timescale proposed we'll have to wait a long time to find out.

regards

Bryan

freethekillie2 · Joined: 27 Apr 2007 Posts: 309

As You say Bryan, we have to all stick together .
this is all our fight and the goverment will have to listen soon or later!

i would be willing to pay into a national injustice group.
and swap everything we have against the people that are no better than the nazi party!

maybe it could be headed by mojo, and Iain?

it looks like the justice minister is closing ranks and will make it harder for us all.

I WANT ALL ON THIS FORUM AND OTHERS TO UNITE AND FIGHT A SNP PARTY THAT PROMISED SO MUCH , BUT HAS NOT DELIVERED A THING!

SPREAD THE WORD!

PeterCherbi · Joined: 23 May 2007 Posts: 147 Location: Edinburgh

Iain, I agree with you 100%.

I think if anything, that debate last week in the Parliament over access to justice reforms, is a fairly good test of how the SNP are viewing the Justice issue - and sadly from the debate, I see a very bad attitude developing, where for now at least, the current holder of the Justice portfolio has very strongly sided with elements of the legal profession who definitely do not support reform of anything, or inquiries into anything. What came out of that debate for me, was that justice is to be denied, not widened.

It was particularly telling, where Mr MacAskill praised Law Society officials for 'outstanding contributions' amid claims Scotland owes such people and the profession an "immense debt' .. but the very same Law Society officials had threatened the Parliament & Scottish Executive with legal action in 2006 over the prospect of regulatory reforms contained in the LPLA (Scotland) Act 2007 and I wrote about that legal threat when it was made :
http://petercherbi.blogspot.com/2...ociety-of-scotland-threatens.html

Praising & openly supporting in Parliament, a profession & group of individuals, or individual who embarked on a threat to the democratic values of our Parliament & elected Scottish Executive, simply on the basis lawyers were not going to be allowed to regulate complaints against their own colleagues, is not something I would have expected from an SNP Government Minister, and the Justice one at that.

I think Mr Salmond has a duty to inject impartiality and balance into reforms of the Scots legal system, which as we see in further headlines today, are definitely not being achieved, in a flawed review of the double jeopardy issue, coming after the spectacular failure of the Crown Office in the World's End trial collapse.

It falls to Mr Salmond in my view, as that very debate last week on legal services reform, indicated fairly unequivocally, that the current Justice Secretary does not have sufficient impartiality to proceed on such matters.

Wullie, Freethekillie2, Bryan, I agree with you too. A group must be formed to tackle these things and promote values which are certainly not present in Scots Law today. I'm sure when the Conference comes around, that will be a good venue for such proposals to be acted upon.
_________________
My blog on issues of injustice in Scotland A Diary of Injustice in Scotland by Peter Cherbi

Injustice Scotland Campaign website : Injustice Scotland

freethekillie2 · Joined: 27 Apr 2007 Posts: 309

Good government is about listening to public and political concerns with a cool head."

http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/news/display.var.1850483.0.0.php

is it mr mac askill?
THEN LISTEN!

Iain McKie · Joined: 08 May 2007 Posts: 192 Location: Ayr, Scotland.

From the above contributions it is clear that while we all want something done we are not sure how.

While I in no way wish to devalue the comments and initiatives to date we have to admit that they have done little to change the system.

While a certain amount of official movement has been forced in the aftermath of Lockerbie, the World’s End Trial, Shirley’s, and the many other cases where the system got it badly wrong, we are still faced by the same basic culture and structure.

Changes at this level are hard if not impossible to engineer.

It seems clear while the present administration is willing to contemplate change – and I feel we have got to give them time to bring this about – the recent legal service's debate seems to signal that the culture and structure are likely to remain untouched.

For any hope of change at this level we need political structure and power.

Lawyers ensure their voice is heard and listened to through the Law Society and most of the professions have representative bodies who plead their case. When enquiries and commissions sit they are called in to give evidence. While we might criticise such bodies it is indisputable that they represent their vested interests rather well.

As Peter stated the Justice Secretary went out of his way to praise the Law Society for its positive approach to contemplated change but there was not a mention of those like ourselves who work away tirelessly to make an impact.

I believe the question is how do we get that voice without being co-opted and seduced by the system?

Bryan gives us a clue when he points out that the people affected by his Mum’s death runs into thousands and we can all agree that your own cases have collectively generated many thousands of ‘interested parties’.

This is the base from which a national ‘Justice Forum’ could be created and in next year’s conference we have the opportunity to launch it.

Any ‘Forum’ must be so developed that it is seen as a body to be listened to and not a grouping of disaffected obsessives. (as the system loves to label dissenters)

It must have properly constituted rules and procedures and eventually funding to ensure its survival. It must fill a genuine need in Scotland and be respected for the logic of the arguments it presents and the way they are presented.

Any thoughts?

freethekillie2 · Joined: 27 Apr 2007 Posts: 309

quote!
Any ‘Forum’ must be so developed that it is seen as a body to be listened to and not a grouping of disaffected obsessives. (as the system loves to label dissenters)

Iain we as the affected, by a system must fight with every avenue not just political.

even going down the road of militant!

we need to hit a system that has and will keep screwing us! could us all make a poster to highlight injustice and bring it to the people all the cases highlighted on this and many more forums? by means of thinking about the poster then sending them for all to get printed ? then send them all over the place!

it is time to fight back against a goverment that has threw us to the dogs!

and spread the word through the media world wide so that they see how good our justice system is, and let them know that cases highlighted here are just the tip of the iceberg.

SPREAD THE WORD JUSTICE IN SCOTLAND IS CORRUPT!

WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE MR SALMOND!

OR GO BACK TO BEING A BACKBENCHER.