shirleymckie.myfastforum.org

admin · Site Admin Joined: 22 Apr 2007 Posts: 71

I have copied the postings below to this new heading to allow full debate on a recommendation that offers positive help to those suffering injustice.

admin · Site Admin Joined: 22 Apr 2007 Posts: 71

Bryan

Posted: 13 Nov 2007 03:21 pm Post subject:

Perhaps it's time we went political. Should we create a "Justice Party" ?

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Iain McKie

Posted: 16 Nov 2007 12:50 pm Post subject:

Bryan,

There is no way forward unless it is politically.

This is the only way change will result.

Those interested in change must make a case for it and that case must be politically supported.

Truth, logic, fairness and equity unfortunately have little to do with change unless the politicians pick it up.

Another reality is that justice/injustice is not really a high political priority and as a result issues like reducing the poll tax or university fees command much more attention.

These issues affect people directly. Injustice is a distant amorphous concept that only affects others. It is not seen as directly relevant to our daily lives.

I suggest that any prospective politician seriously interested in being elected would be well advised to campaign on a platform to reduce the council tax rather than to ensure that the truth about Lockerbie is known.

It is remarkable when you think about it but I cannot remember one successful political candidate standing on a justice platform.

Does this say it all?

Best wishes,

Iain

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Bryan

Posted: 16 Nov 2007 06:21 pm Post subject: are we in crisis?

Iain

Thanks for picking up on the issue of poll tax commanding political attention and being a platform to a seat in Scottish Government. Successful candidates, yes. Unfortunately, Council Tax, is still with us and rising alarmingly every year. Failures. Every one.

You asked me once why i do not have much regard for polititians. You answered the question far more graciously than I ever could.

As for a Scottish Justice Party? Keep the debate going folks.

Fondest regards
Bryan

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Iain McKie

Posted: 19 Nov 2007 06:23 pm Post subject:

As so often in the past we are obliged to Peter Cherbi for bringing important issues to our attention and the question of reforming the legal system is the most important of all.

I have just ploughed through the debate and like Peter and Al am far from certain just how committed the Scottish Government is to real reform.

While sensibly suggesting that any changes must take account of the needs of Scotland and its people and not merely be a knee jerk reaction by copying the English proposals this almost seemed to be an argument for severely limiting change.

There is little doubt that behind the matters being debated are vitally important issues of direct relevance to us all.

· The prohibitive cost of obtaining criminal/civil legal representation.

· The unacceptably long time taken to process cases.

· Where does the client go when that representation fails him/her?

· What you do if you cannot access representation?

· Who polices the system and on whose behalf?

While the debate was useful and raised many important issues it was clear that no party is really willing to challenge the legal establishment. While there were some well made points about operating the system in a more open way there was little if any lateral thinking. Clearly the base everyone was working from was a basically effective and tested system that was more in need of remedial ‘first aid’ without any real cultural or structural change.

Some sense was spoken and I certainly agree with members speaking against the legal system being ‘Tesco-ised’ and having a fear of a free for all in which many local sole practitioners would be forced to the wall. We have all seen how the major supermarkets have forced many small shopkeepers out of business and instead of increasing competition threaten to reduce it.

This said while the product is clearly different and more stringent safeguards and checks and balances require to be in place to regulate the quality of the service being offered the principle is the same. We are entitled ready access to quality services delivered in a reasonable time at a reasonable cost unhindered by the existing incestuous system based on self interest. If this can be guaranteed by making the system more competitive then so be it.

This debate does not encourage me that this is going to happen. Underpinning it all was the message that change will occur but it will only be change that the present establishment wants. Vested interests will not be challenged.

The fact is we have a system coming apart at the seams. As injustice piles on injustice it is clear that unless the law is made more open, accessible and affordable nothing will change.

As MSP Mike Pringle stated in the debate:

“There are three questions at the crux of this complex issue. First, how can we provide a widely accessible legal service to the people of Scotland? Secondly, how can we ensure that the standard of the service remains consistent and well regulated? Thirdly, what structure is best suited to fulfilling those conditions?”

We must be involved in this debate. The question is – how?

Given Bryan’s exhortation for a Justice Party a comprehensive group response would probably be much more effective than individual ones.

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Big Wullie

Posted: 21 Nov 2007 12:14 am Post subject:

As well as asking SNP Ministers and MSPs we should all be asking All Our Local MSPs to become involved in these much needed Reforms.
A group set up Independently of our Judiciary is much needed, I for one am willing to participate in such groups as indeed i am sure most other victims would only be too willing to give up some of their spare time to participate in such group meetings.
Who would head such a Group Though?
I have set up a blog for people to put their complaints forward against Lawyers and it can be found here

http://lawsocietycomplaints.blogspot.com/

It is to be hoped that by sharing complaints the people of Scotland will be able to address properly and word their complaints to the Law Society.
Secondly.
It is hoped that people will be able to compare complaints and see if the Law Society are dealing with their complaints evenly or not.
All complaints will be published when a proper E-Mail Address is provided.
Copied documents backing up such complaints will also be published but names and addresses will be withheld on Request.

Along with Iain above i agree that Peter brings so much to our fight for Justice and for this i thank him.

Together i beleive we can set up a working group to look at all miscarriages

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Bryan

Posted: 21 Nov 2007 11:54 am Post subject:

Willie

Whilst not taking away or interfering with our individual groups, who all do good work, I agree we should set up a super-group if you like.
Every misscarriage affects many people. In my mums case I would estimate a direct effect on perhaps way over one thousand, including relatives friends neighbours and such. In the broader community, many many more. Add up the number of people affected by all our cases, translate them into votes and we have a considerable lobby right across the country.
I believe passionately, this would be the beginning of a major pressure group. I suppose my dream of a “Justice Party” may have to wait a bit.
Regards
Bryan

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freethekillie2

Posted: 21 Nov 2007 10:29 pm Post subject:

As You say Bryan, we have to all stick together .
this is all our fight and the goverment will have to listen soon or later!

i would be willing to pay into a national injustice group.
and swap everything we have against the people that are no better than the nazi party!

maybe it could be headed by mojo, and Iain?

it looks like the justice minister is closing ranks and will make it harder for us all.

I WANT ALL ON THIS FORUM AND OTHERS TO UNITE AND FIGHT A SNP PARTY THAT PROMISED SO MUCH , BUT HAS NOT DELIVERED A THING!

SPREAD THE WORD!

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PeterCherbi

Posted: 22 Nov 2007 05:51 am Post subject:

Iain, I agree with you 100%.

I think if anything, that debate last week in the Parliament over access to justice reforms, is a fairly good test of how the SNP are viewing the Justice issue - and sadly from the debate, I see a very bad attitude developing, where for now at least, the current holder of the Justice portfolio has very strongly sided with elements of the legal profession who definitely do not support reform of anything, or inquiries into anything. What came out of that debate for me, was that justice is to be denied, not widened.

It was particularly telling, where Mr MacAskill praised Law Society officials for 'outstanding contributions' amid claims Scotland owes such people and the profession an "immense debt' .. but the very same Law Society officials had threatened the Parliament & Scottish Executive with legal action in 2006 over the prospect of regulatory reforms contained in the LPLA (Scotland) Act 2007 and I wrote about that legal threat when it was made :
http://petercherbi.blogspot.com/2...ociety-of-scotland-threatens.html

Praising & openly supporting in Parliament, a profession & group of individuals, or individual who embarked on a threat to the democratic values of our Parliament & elected Scottish Executive, simply on the basis lawyers were not going to be allowed to regulate complaints against their own colleagues, is not something I would have expected from an SNP Government Minister, and the Justice one at that.

I think Mr Salmond has a duty to inject impartiality and balance into reforms of the Scots legal system, which as we see in further headlines today, are definitely not being achieved, in a flawed review of the double jeopardy issue, coming after the spectacular failure of the Crown Office in the World's End trial collapse.

It falls to Mr Salmond in my view, as that very debate last week on legal services reform, indicated fairly unequivocally, that the current Justice Secretary does not have sufficient impartiality to proceed on such matters.

Wullie, Freethekillie2, Bryan, I agree with you too. A group must be formed to tackle these things and promote values which are certainly not present in Scots Law today. I'm sure when the Conference comes around, that will be a good venue for such proposals to be acted upon.

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Iain McKie

Posted: 22 Nov 2007 11:55 am Post subject:

From the above contributions it is clear that while we all want something done we are not sure how.

While I in no way wish to devalue the comments and initiatives to date we have to admit that they have done little to change the system.

While a certain amount of official movement has been forced in the aftermath of Lockerbie, the World’s End Trial, Shirley’s, and the many other cases where the system got it badly wrong, we are still faced by the same basic culture and structure.

Changes at this level are hard if not impossible to engineer.

It seems clear while the present administration is willing to contemplate change – and I feel we have got to give them time to bring this about – the recent legal service's debate seems to signal that the culture and structure are likely to remain untouched.

For any hope of change at this level we need political structure and power.

Lawyers ensure their voice is heard and listened to through the Law Society and most of the professions have representative bodies who plead their case. When enquiries and commissions sit they are called in to give evidence. While we might criticise such bodies it is indisputable that they represent their vested interests rather well.

As Peter stated the Justice Secretary went out of his way to praise the Law Society for its positive approach to contemplated change but there was not a mention of those like ourselves who work away tirelessly to make an impact.

I believe the question is how do we get that voice without being co-opted and seduced by the system?

Bryan gives us a clue when he points out that the people affected by his Mum’s death runs into thousands and we can all agree that your own cases have collectively generated many thousands of ‘interested parties’.

This is the base from which a national ‘Justice Forum’ could be created and in next year’s conference we have the opportunity to launch it.

Any ‘Forum’ must be so developed that it is seen as a body to be listened to and not a grouping of disaffected obsessives. (as the system loves to label dissenters)

It must have properly constituted rules and procedures and eventually funding to ensure its survival. It must fill a genuine need in Scotland and be respected for the logic of the arguments it presents and the way they are presented.

Any thoughts?

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Bryan

Posted: 22 Nov 2007 08:46 pm Post subject:

A “Justice Forum” being created is the way forward, and, as is being suggested we have a golden oppertunity to launch it next August.
We can have a power base with a real voice. It must be a transparent, properly constituted body, with built in safeguards that no matter what we are confronted with, (as we will be) our dignity must remain intact.
I dont know if there is a model out there we can base a constitution on or give us some direction. If anyone knows of one, please let us know. Whatever, if we are to achieve this we have a lot of work to do.
Regards
Bryan.

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Iain McKie

Posted: 23 Nov 2007 03:29 pm Post subject:

Bryan,

Developing the idea further I would envisage this group as providing a one-stop advice and assistance service for injustice victims.

Here they would be helped to:

· Present their case coherently.
· Organise media publicity
· Obtain political support
· Complete forms and documents
· Prepare Freedom of Information requests etc etc.

The organisation would develop a database of helpful information related to fighting injustice.

In addition the group would act as a voice for victims of injustice and be available to give evidence to enquiries etc.

Hopefully it would become the complete support service to allow individuals to fight their case.

Initially the group would require funding to launch it and its continuation would depend on sponsorship or central funding.

As you have said many thousands of people are aware/affected by injustice. At ₤5 a head the first year’s funding is secured.

This is now an idea to develop.

Best wishes,

Iain

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Big Wullie

Posted: 23 Nov 2007 05:38 pm Post subject:

Iain

Would it be an idea if we could start by maybe arranging a fundraising night which could give us an idea of the amount of interest.
Should we maybe start doing some fundraising of our own or maybe even asking some companies for sponsorship.
If we all as Bryan suggests approach everyone affected by injustice and say ask for them to donate a Fiver £5 which is not a lot of money, The price of a pack of fags or a gallon of petrol, then this organisation becomes a strong reality.
Let us all put our heads together and get this issue going (The sooner the better)
Suggestions for such a name would be a start then take it from there once this is agreed.
I am in support of this and offer my time completely and will dedicate myself to the setting up of such group.

Wullie Beck

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freethekillie2

Posted: 24 Nov 2007 01:07 am Post subject:

I Would pay as long as mojoscotland was involved! in any action against injustice!

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Big Wullie

Posted: 24 Nov 2007 02:32 am Post subject:

Any Organisation willing to participate or contribute to this Organisation and all other ideas should be thought through.
I dont see any rush so far from any Organisation, Dont hold your breath people.
I would propose an organisation maybe Chaired by Iain McKie backed by the likes of maybe Prof Black and John Scott.
It is an absolute must that there be independent Legal Advice and someone capable of providing such, who the Government and Courts will accept as "Credible"
Well any organisations willing to take part?

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freethekillie2

Posted: 24 Nov 2007 09:35 am Post subject:

ANY GROUP SHOULD INVOLVE ALL THE MISCARRIAGES OF JUSTICE GROUPS.
AND LEGAL PEOPLE, AND ALL THE MEDIA CONTACTS WE HAVE.

And legal experts, and maybe even students from law courses!

and all the collective media that we have.

there has to be a chain of command. and a united trust in the work we all do!

our only hope is to unite all injustice groups , get a web site set up and highlight all the cases in a better way.

i am will to chip in the five pounds a month as many i know are and even extra for maintaining a web site with links to all miscarraige of justice victims.

as robert burns said a man,s a man for a' that!

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Big Wullie

Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 12:20 pm Post subject:

With all due respect but organisations already set up will have no interest in joining any other groups.
Of course close contact and working with these groups will be a must.

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Iain McKie · Joined: 08 May 2007 Posts: 192 Location: Ayr, Scotland.

As KTK2 states the creation of a dedicated website is vital to any new organisation. The internet has after all given us a voice denied by the system.

It is also important to gain broad support for any new organisation across Scotland and there is a price to pay for this.

While debate can be vigorous and controversial, obtaining broad support depends on our putting forward a creditable argument in a logical way and within the law. I would argue that any other organisations who seek to sign up to our goals must accept these boundaries.

Much of the frustration created by years of being ignored and lied to that is so evident on this and other justice forums is perfectly understandable. It has to be tempered however with the understanding that 'going over the top' allows the very system that created the frustration to label us 'obsessives' and perhaps alientate the people who might lend their support.

Any new grouping has to balance 'letting off steam' and personal attacks with an ability to bring forward positive proposals for change.

This is more of a dilemma than it seems but it is issues like this that have to be faced in the run up to next year’s conference and the hoped for launch of the new support organisation.

Iain McKie · Joined: 08 May 2007 Posts: 192 Location: Ayr, Scotland.

I am trying to gather all postings on the proposed new justice organisation under the heading 'Justice Forum' and not as previously under the 'Are we in crisis' heading.

This will help in any assessment of such an organisation and I would appreciate your co-operation in using this subject heading for all your comments, opinions and ideas.

Any ideas you have are welcome.

freethekillie2 · Joined: 27 Apr 2007 Posts: 309

Will have to think what to write Iain, but will get back soon!

in short for now i think a website is the first thing!
also you could run for the local party in south ayrshire as campaigning for a group like us all and have a voice against those that try to bring us down. it also could help people that are victims of crime like to show the other side of justice. JUSTICE PARTY SCOTLAND, you would get votes i think!

YOU WOULD DO A GOOD JOB BETTER THAN THE IDIOTS THERE, IF THE BNP CAN GET IN WE CAN , THINK ABOUT IT. we could all help pay the deposit?

http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=5017567767

Iain McKie · Joined: 08 May 2007 Posts: 192 Location: Ayr, Scotland.

I feel we must proceed one step at a time and firstly we must identify what we want this new organisation to do.

I repeat the vital questions.

These questions must be answered before a high quality website is created.

In this respect the best way forward is probably to have one sponsored by a supporter.

PeterCherbi · Joined: 23 May 2007 Posts: 147 Location: Edinburgh

Hi Iain

Yes, I feel a new organisation is needed. I say that because at the moment, there is not one outstanding organisation in Scotland which tackles injustice across the full range of issues in which injustice can occur.

It's goals, as far as I would be concerned, would be along the lines of ... to promote reforms, changes to the law when the law is found lacking, investigate issues brought to it's attention, offer 'arbitration resolution' between victims of injustice & the institutions which have caused it,promote dialogue & discussion on injustice in the public domain, perhaps negotiate an alliance with legal agents who do wish to help those who have genuinely suffered injustice ...

How such goals would be achieved - there would have to be an underlying legal element to achieving goals I have mentioned, especially on resolution of cases of injustice as without a legal element, and possible approach to the courts, I don't think such an organisation would 'have enough teeth' to face the big issues .. Political allies would be an asset too.

The administrative & decision making structure should be that of a collective one.

We have all seen how effective, the likes of (to quote a strange example I admit) the Law Society of Scotland has been over the years in promoting the interests of it's own members, bending legislation to it's own needs, and well, getting away with what it wants to be honest, all under the influence of a very few individuals without voting rights for the membership). We need to have the reverse of that, and ensure such a body created to tackle injustice works from a collective structure, always in the public interest.

It should be funded by the Scottish Government, as their inaction in many cases is what is allowing injustice to occur.

I'm also a supporter of 'the polluter pays' ... where organisations or so which are found to be causing injustice should face a fine for their actions in addition to appropriate redress for the victim.Such fines could go to such a new organisation in addition to public funding.

The Government and Crown Office are all very fond just now of talk of 'asset seizure' and 'confiscating the profits of crime' - well, one way to scale down the injustice which organisations seem to arbitrarily cause, and get away with it due to lack of regulation and lack of a decent campaign body, is to make those who cause injustice pay, and pay heavily. A resulting financial burden from treating people badly or causing injustice should have an impact - I believe it is that omission in current circumstances, combined with a restricted access to justice, which allows organisations to act as they do, causing injustice without chance of resolution to the victim.

Building links between existing injustice organisations is a must, links & associations and interactions on awareness campaigns, cases, etc, but not direct influence over other's policy.

Yes it should be launched at next year's conference, which should give us all time to prepare a remit, function and funding plan for such an organisation.

Just some of my own ideas off the top of my head .... probably a lot more needs to be done but I'm sure we will get there.
_________________
My blog on issues of injustice in Scotland A Diary of Injustice in Scotland by Peter Cherbi

Injustice Scotland Campaign website : Injustice Scotland

Iain McKie · Joined: 08 May 2007 Posts: 192 Location: Ayr, Scotland.

As Peter says there is not an organisation tackling injustice across its whole spectrum.

There is also a lack of co-ordinated effort by ‘Justice’ organisations and a number of them are devoted to highlighting issues not necessarily providing solutions.

He sees the goals of the new organisation as :

freethekillie2 · Joined: 27 Apr 2007 Posts: 309

Wullie lets agree to disagree on certain points.
i hope this new organisation helps out victims and their families, like others
do.

as for charity status go to

http://www.mojoscotland.com/news.html

then scroll down to bottom left hand side.

i suppose we are all in the same boat,

good luck with this new miscarraige of justice group!

freethekillie2!

Iain McKie · Joined: 08 May 2007 Posts: 192 Location: Ayr, Scotland.

Can I remind readers that while it is great to get things off our chests, proposals and suggestions re the structure and goals of the proposed new justice/injustice organisation are still needed.

I repeat the vital questions.

Is the new organisation needed?

What would be its goals?

How would they be achieved?

How would it be funded?

How would it relate to existing justice organisations?

Should we launch it at next year's conference?

My assessment of a great deal of the comment on injustice in Scotland is that while it is full of justifed invective and anger at the system, positive ideas for change are somewhat thin on the ground.

Before we go into further meetings about next year's conference it would be useful to hear from you on the way change can be effected and sustained.